120Hz flatskjermer, 24p input, etc

Årets trend etter at "1080p-racet" har lagt seg er tydeligvis 24p. Sony, Samsung, Philips konkurerer om å tilby "ekte" 24p inngang som skal gi den ultimate kino-lignende opplevelsen for materiale som opprinnelig er filmet for kinosalen. Dessuten tilbys gjerne forskjellige forbedrende teknologier som skal nyttiggjøre seg et display som kan oppdateres 100/120ggr pr sekund ved å "gjette" seg fram til mellomliggende bilder som ikke eksisterer. Det er noe uenighet om dette siste forbedrer eller forverrer filmskaperens intensjon, og derfor kan man som regel velge å slå av funksjonen.

Jeg har skrevet et innlegg på AVS Forum - Home som kanskje har interesse også her:

It just seems strange (and stupid) that now after finishing the war of "TRUE 1080p HD", they have started focusing on the temporal aspects of video by introducing /24p and 120Hz panels, but they left out the possibility of showing 24p video as even-timed 24p/48p/72p/96p/120p. Especially with a source that is sampled at a critically low sampling frequency, I claim that there is good reason not to fiddle with the sampling times.

1) 50Hz ticks
2) 60Hz ticks
3)240Hz ticks
4) time [s]
5) Movie camera timings
6) Cinema projector timings (48fps)
7) "NTSC" 60i timings
8 ) "NTSC" 60p de-interlaced timings
9) "NTSC" 60p IVTC timings
10) These "bad" 24p->60p->120p display timings
11) Proper 24p->120p display timings
12) "PAL" 24p->50p display timings

FRC = Frame Rate Conversion (digital or mechanical changing the period between frames). Could be integral (eg 25p->50p) or non-integral (eg 24p->60p)
IVTC = Inverse Telecine: Recreating an original 24p sequence from a 50i/60i delivery
deInt = Deinterlacing: lines lost in an interlaced delivery

Kode: Merk alt


Source:
1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 |
####|####|#####|##########|####|24p |24p |24p |24p |24p |24p |24p |

Delivery format:
####|####|#####|##########|####|reel|60i |60i |60i |60i |60i |50i |

Processing steps:
####|####|#####|##########|####|FRC | no |de- |IVTC|IVTC|IVTC|IVTC|
####|####|#####|##########|####| | |Int | |FRC |120 |50 |
####|####|#####|##########|####| | | | |60 | | |
####|####|#####|##########|####| | | | |FRC | | |
####|####|#####|##########|####| | | | |120 | | |

Physical display/capture rate:
####|####|#####|##########| 24 | 48 | 60 | 60 | 60 |120 |120 |50 |


Presentation/Capture timing:
1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 |
-------------------------------------------------------------------
0 | 0 | 0 | [0/1200]| 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 |
| | | [1/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | | [2/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | | [3/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | | [4/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | 1 | [5/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | | [6/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | | [7/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | | [8/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | | [9/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | 2 |[10/1200]| | | | | | 1 | 1 | |
| | |[11/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[12/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[13/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[14/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | 3 |[15/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[16/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[17/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[18/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[19/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| 1 | 4 |[20/1200]| | | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | |
| | |[21/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[22/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[23/1200]| | | | | | | | |
1 | | |[24/1200]| | | | | | | | 1 |
| | 5 |[25/1200]| | 1 | | | | | | |
| | |[26/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[27/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[28/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[29/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | 6 |[30/1200]| | | | | | 1 | 1 | |
| | |[31/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[32/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[33/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[34/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | 7 |[35/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[36/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[37/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[38/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[39/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| 2 | 8 |[40/1200]| | | 1 |1/2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | |
| | |[41/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[42/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[43/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[44/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | 9 |[45/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[46/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[47/1200]| | | | | | | | |
2 | | |[48/1200]| | | | | | | | 2 |
| | |[49/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | 10 |[50/1200]| 2 | 2 | | | | 1 | 2 | |
| | |[51/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[52/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[53/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[54/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | 11 |[55/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[56/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[57/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[58/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[59/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| 3 | 12 |[60/1200]| | | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | |
| | |[61/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[62/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[63/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[64/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | 13 |[65/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[66/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[67/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[68/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[69/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | 14 |[70/1200]| | | | | | 2 | 2 | |
| | |[71/1200]| | | | | | | | |
3 | | |[72/1200]| | | | | | | | 2 |
| | |[73/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[74/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | 15 |[75/1200]| | 2 | | | | | | |
| | |[76/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[77/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[78/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[79/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| 4 | 16 |[80/1200]| | | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | |
| | |[81/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[82/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[83/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[84/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | 17 |[85/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[86/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[87/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[88/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[89/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | 18 |[90/1200]| | | | | | 2 | 2 | |
| | |[91/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[92/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[93/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[94/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | 19 |[95/1200]| | | | | | | | |
4 | | |[96/1200]| | | | | | | | 3 |
| | |[97/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[98/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| | |[99/1200]| | | | | | | | |
| 5 | 20 |[100/1200]|3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | |
...

Source:
1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 |
####|####|#####|##########|####|24p |24p |24p |24p |24p |24p |24p |

Delivery format:
####|####|#####|##########|####|reel|60i |60i |60i |60i |60i |50i |

Processing steps:
####|####|#####|##########|####|FRC | no |de- |IVTC|IVTC|IVTC|IVTC|
####|####|#####|##########|####| | |Int | |FRC |120 |50 |
####|####|#####|##########|####| | | | |60 | | |
####|####|#####|##########|####| | | | |FRC | | |
####|####|#####|##########|####| | | | |120 | | |

Physical display/capture rate:
####|####|#####|##########| 24 | 48 | 60 | 60 | 60 |120 |120 |50 |


Notes:
Note the difference between "proper" 24p->120p and the "improper" 24p->60p->120p at the 50/1200 timing (bold): The second FRC cannot know that sourceframe#2 is now the current source-frame since that information is concealed by the first FRC producing a seemingly valid frame equal to sourceframe#1 for that time.

The bad approach simply leaves with a 6:4 cadence @120fps that looks just like a 3:2 cadence @60fps for constantly lit (ie LCD) displays. One possible exception to this is if their motion-compensated FRC is able to smooth out some errors, but it is still a seemingliy totally unnecessary degradation.

The good approach gives us a 5:5 approach, a 120fps display that is as jerky as 24p ought to be, but not more. (This also depends on the display technology, a plasma screen or some other "flash"-based display will probably give a temporal perception close to that of a cinema projector for correct 5:5 120fps).

The PAL/50Hz column does not produce a cadence in sync with the (original) source, instead it is constantly shortening the frameperiod by ~24/25 resulting in a slightly shorter movie without the time-base artefacts that the US people have.

-k

Bakgrunn:

http://avforum.no/forum/tv-apparater/52141-sony-bravia-lcd-d3000-serie-100hz-6.html#post672770


Official Sony KDL-40V3000 & KDL-46V3000 thread - AVS Forum

24p True Cinema (24p Input Capability)
Many movies are filmed at 24 frames per second (fps) and prime time TV programs are video taped at 24p. Seizing on an opportunity, some studios are taking a purist approach and encoding high definition video content such as Blu-ray Disc™ in 24p. Sonywisely takes advantage of this by including 24p output capability on their BDP-S1 Blu-ray Disc player. It makes sense that select 2007 BRAVIA TVs will include 24p input capability. The benefit? Images are smooth and natural looking. Once you experience 24p video it will be hard to view video without it.

Talked to a knowledgeable sales rep at the Sony Store last week and he mentioned the V and W series still require 3:2 pulldown for 1080p24 signal. He is not 100% sure the XBR4 does a 5:5 pulldown or not for 1080p24 signal.

24p True Cinema means it is capable of accepting 1080p 24 and 60 signals.

It means it will still do a 3:2 pulldown and convert the 1080p 24 signal to 1080p 60.

What benefit does 24p input capability have when you still use 3:2 pulldown?

Real confused by the V2500, V3000 & W3000 offerings? Main difference i can make out.....................

V2500, V3000, W3000
1080P panels, same backlighting, same panel, all accept 1080P.

V3000 additional benefits (add $500 or so premium over V2500)
Accepts 1080:24P, 10 bit addressing for increased contrast ratio's.

W3000 additional benefits (add $1000 or so premium over V2500)
V3000 improvements PLUS HDMI v1.3 for increased color pallette, Has 120hz motion.

Er europeisk D3000 i slekt med amerikansk W3000 da? Eller hvordan henger modellene sammen?


List of 120Hz LCD Sets - AVS Forum

I'm trying to make a list of all the 120hz LCD sets available right now. I've written this article , on my website, and I think I have all of them covered, but if I'm missing any sets, I'd appreciate it if you could point them out. I'm in the market to buy one soon, and I know many other people in these forums are also interested in the sets, so I'd like to keep a running list. I haven't been able to find a comprehensive list anywhere else. Here's what I have so far:
1080p Sets
...
Sony Bravia 32" KDL-32XBR4 <--- haven't been able to confirm larger models
5:5 Pulldown: ?
Pros: N/A
Cons: N/A
...
720p Sets
...

LCD TVs that support 1080p @ 24fps input - AVS Forum

Can you guys clarify if they actually display 1080p24 or simply accept 1080p24 (presumably converting to native 1080p60 for display).

I would hope that all displays that accept 1080p24 only update their screens 24 times a second instead of doing the standard 2:3:3:2 (or whatever pattern you want) to display at 1080p60. But your right, that may not be the case.

It doesn't have to display it at 24Hz. It just has to be a multiple of 24Hz. 120Hz is a good refresh rate because 60Hz goes into it as well as 24Hz. Unfortunately the current 120Hz sets don't display 24Hz content with a 5:5:5 pattern.

Yes, at this is precisely what I meant. I suspect some of these sets are 60hz sets that are accepting a 1080p24 signal, but ultimately converting it to 1080p60 for display which puts you right back at square one.

This seems to indicate Sony's 24p input support, like Toshiba's, means 24p->60p->120p.

The LCD Samsung M86/M87 (65/66 US) can accept a (forced) 1080p24 signal from a HTPC and display it at 24Hz without judder according to the following thread:
Blu-ray/PS3 and 24p-problems/experiences with the M86/87 - AV Forums

...this is the edid of a other samsung buyer:
...
1920 x 1080p at 59.94/60Hz (16:9) - HDTV (Native)
1920 x 1080p at 50Hz (16:9) - HDTV
1280 x 720p at 59.94/60Hz (16:9) - HDTV
1280 x 720p at 50Hz (16:9) - HDTV
1920 x 1080i at 59.94/60Hz (16:9) - HDTV
1920 x 1080i at 50Hz (16:9) - HDTV
720 x 480p at 59.94/60Hz (16:9) - EDTV
720 x 576p at 50Hz (16:9) - EDTV
1920 x 1080p at 23.97/24Hz (16:9) - HDTV
1920 x 1080p at 25Hz (16:9) - HDTV
1920 x 1080p at 28.97/30Hz (16:9) - HDTV
...
This have the 1920 1080 23.97- 24 hz and in fact goes to 24p with ps3...

For å runde det hele av:

Sorry if this has been dealt with to death already, but is there any word on which TV's do OR will be released that will be able to display 24Hz content with a 5:5:5 pattern?

As far as I know, none.

So this whole "accepts 24fps" thing is just marketing BS

I guess next year will bring new LCDs with the "accepts 24fps and actually does something with it" feature.

Hard to say... A lot of projectors accept and display 24Hz content at some multiple of 24Hz, so that technology will probably trickle down to LCD sets.

-k